Copernicia baileyana through the years(2011 to 2023)

[sonoranfans]

I knew they were supposed to be slow, but after 12 years from a "small above the soil" 5 gallon my bailey has weathered 2 hurricane force wind events and a resulting spear mold infection that took 2 years to fully eradicate.  IRMA had the worst hurricane damage by far, newer leaves cut the older ones up good with petiole thorns.  It had half the leaves shredded on the windward side.  Currently its 4-5 leaves short of a full crown but its growing quickly now.  Three pics: august 2011 6 months after planting showing a new flush of leaves.  Second pic 2017 just prior to iRMA and last pic today sept 4 2023.  By comparison with the peak of the house roof of 16', it looks to be 2-3 foot taller overall so a few feet shy of 20', and just about 7' of trunk.  I could tear the leafbases off with my hand but allowing them to fall off naturally leads to a more smooth trunk.  The first 4 feet of leafbases are loosely held, a smooth trunk awaits in the near future.  Annual growth in height and numbers of leaves increases as the palm matures so a slow start does not mean its slow in a 12 year scale.  I'd say its a medium grower.

[palmfriend]

Wow - this one turned into a beauty! 

I have got three or four seedlings that are really taking their time to push one strap after another but your documentation just 

reminded me why I purchased this species` seeds...  👍

Thank you for posting!

 

Lars

 

[Looking Glass]

Looks like it took 6 years to decide to go vertical, then a foot+ of solid trunk a year after that.    It’s a good lookin heafty palm now.  Theses Cuban palms are real whoppers when you see them in person.  I’m sure pics make this one look smaller than real-life, when you are standing next to it. 

[mnorell]

Gorgeous palm and really you've managed to get some speed out of it! When we were living on Big Pine Key, our next door neighbor had a small baileyana he had purchased I think at Fairchild around 2010. He planted it and it just sat..and sat...and sat..for years. Just never did anything except put maybe a leaf or so on each year. We couldn't figure it out, since after all we were as close in the U.S. as you can get to its native land. Then we got smacked by the right eyewall of Irma with 4-5' of ocean water for a full day, and after that soaking, suddenly the thing started growing! I didn't track it further the last few years so am not sure if that growth-spurt continued, but it was notable enough for my neighbor to mention it. Who knows whether the salt actually affected it, perhaps it was also the nutrients (ocean-bottom sludge, sargassum, overflowing septic tanks, etc.), but I certainly noticed an effect on a number of my own palms in the ground after that burst of salt and nutrients. In any event, I love that you use the term "a new flush of leaves"...there are a lot of growers of this notoriously slow species in cool climates who I'm sure fantasize about the very idea!

[sonoranfans]

I never shorted this one on florikan 8-2-12, they are supposed to be heavy feeders.  I have also added sulpomag every year the last 4 years as it was trying to replace the leaves lost to IRMA and the fungus which rotted several spears subsequently.  My take is the spear bundle in the grow point was fractuired in IRMA and that allowed the pathogens in when the wax coating was broken.  I thought it might be lost when it took two years to get rid of the fungus.  It also had a some damage in IAN as well so it has been growing back from that.  It has been 4 years since the last fungicide treatment, I'll call this one a success.  Michael about flooding, likely very good for that palm in sandy soil, they love water in the heat.  This one is in a nice irrigation spot and has clayish soil that I dug all the way through(2.5 ft?) down to sand for good drainage and back filled with clay, some sand, organics, and about 10-15% perlite to ensure the soil drained well and didnt compact.   Bailey in sandy soil wants plenty of water and that means a controlled release fertilizer to me, not slow release.  I saw really sandy soil down on pine island when I was there, looks like a good place for surface MVP to retain moisture and nutrients.

[sonoranfans]

Notice in the year one pic the oldest leaves are bigger than the new flush.  At first it just sat there and I was asking why in a florida summer it would not grow but suddenly late summer it pushed out 3 new leaves of smaller size than the old ones.  My read on that is that it was grown in the shade and I put it in full sun so a natural compacting occurred after being elongated in pretty deep shade down on a ranch with lots of huge oaks in myaka.

[Looking Glass]

10 minutes ago, sonoranfans said:

Notice in the year one pic the oldest leaves are bigger than the new flush.  At first it just sat there and I was asking why in a florida summer it would not grow but suddenly late summer it pushed out 3 new leaves of smaller size than the old ones.  My read on that is that it was grown in the shade and I put it in full sun so a natural compacting occurred after being elongated in pretty deep shade down on a ranch with lots of huge oaks in myaka.

There’s full-sun, then there’s FULL SUN.   6hrs a day of sun vs 14+ hours of full on broiling summer Florida sun, depending on the spot and time of year.  Sometimes one persons full sun does not equate to another’s.  I think many of us have experienced the temporary shrinkage of more sun exposure when planting out.   

[sonoranfans]

6 minutes ago, Looking Glass said:

There’s full-sun, then there’s FULL SUN.   6hrs a day of sun vs 14+ hours of full on broiling summer Florida sun, depending on the spot and time of year.  Sometimes one persons full sun does not equate to another’s.  I think many of us have experienced the temporary shrinkage of more sun exposure when planting out.   

the oaks it was under in myaka were almost complete shade all day, just a little filtered sun.  It went into a spot on the north side of my house where summer sun hits for 12+ hrs so full sun, in the heat florida style.  Winter sun was notably less there especially as a small palm.   

[Merlyn]

That's an awesome palm, I'm definitely looking forward to mine getting that big!  I bought a 7g from MB Palms back in December 2018, and planted it in the SE side of the yard in April 2019.  It was in full sun at MB, but ended up with too much shade in the spot I'd picked.  At one point the invasive giant elephant ears Xanthosoma sagittifolium were shading it, then a bamboo (Asian Lemon) were shading it from the East, and now this giant Cycas on the East side is blocking a lot of sun.  It was also fully shaded during the winter due to some tall water oaks and pines along the property line.  But it's now 4 feet tall and it started with fronds the same size as the Macroglossa in the foreground.  The good news is that it took about 50% burn with 24-26F + frost in January 2022, and essentially no damage with 20+ hours under freezing and minimum of ~26F at Christmas 2022.  The Macroglossa in front of it was 100% defoliated but keeps growing back!  The Fallaensis I bought and planted at the same time was very slightly hardier and is growing a little quicker but has always been in full sun.  Here's the Baileyana:

 

[Barry]

Mine was planted in 2019 in a 7 gal. It was a little crooked from Ian, but is growing well. I irrigate regularly and also use Florican fertilizer. It is about 7 ft tall now. Very happy with its growth.

[WaianaeCrider]

Back in 1999 I bought a couple of Copernicia's.  One was labeled C. Baileyana.  Sometime ago someone here thought is was mis-labeled.  So what do you think now?  It's growing very nicely.  It went into the ground in April of 1999 from a 1 gallon pot.  First picture I have is 10 years later in 2009.  It will be followed by one today and then close up of the frond front and back.

 

[Merlyn]

@WaianaeCrider that's a great looking Copernicia too!  It's definitely not a pure Bailey, if I had to make a SWAG I would think maybe Bailey x Macroglossa.  There's a known hybrid "x Textilis" but it doesn't quite look like those photos either.  Either way I'd love to have one like that in my garden.  The big flat fans with draping tips is really interesting!

[sonoranfans]

One of several key identifying aspects of baileyana is those nasty sharp black teeth on the petioles.  Trying to treat a bud with a spray bottle of fungicide is hazardous for your forearm.  These are among the nastiest thorns of any species in my yard, they arent as big as Livistona saribus or copernicia alba but they are many arranged in a saw pattern and sharper than those two.  Getting your arm in there without injury is tough, even squeezing a spray bottle of fungicide could get you cut good.  This is part of the reason it took a while to get rid of the fungus I suspect, hard to even get a bottle in there with so many petioles with sharp teeth.  The crown width of my bailey when the crown is full is within 1-2' of my fallaensis when it has a full crown.  The fallaensis has a thicker shorter petiole and a bigger, longer leaf measured as much as 6'6" long vs vailey at almost 5'.  The fallaensis leaf is also a foot wider, 5' vs 4'.  But other than that the crowns are of similar size.  The fallaensis trunk is also nearly half again thicker according to what I have read. 

[sonoranfans]

6 hours ago, WaianaeCrider said:

Back in 1999 I bought a couple of Copernicia's.  One was labeled C. Baileyana.  Sometime ago someone here thought is was mis-labeled.  So what do you think now?  It's growing very nicely.  It went into the ground in April of 1999 from a 1 gallon pot.  First picture I have is 10 years later in 2009.  It will be followed by one today and then close up of the frond front and back.

 

I dont expect that is baileyana due to the leaf width vs length being off quite a bit.  The distance in a direction along petiole from the end of petiole to leaf tip vs width leaf tip to leaf tip across in a normal direction is a ratio Charlie measured.  Charley had a yard that must have been full of baileys and fallaensis and he recorded the ratios for fallaensis and bailey.   Your leaf looks too wide vs its length to be either. Here is the Palmtalk link:

 

[WaianaeCrider]

4 hours ago, sonoranfans said:

I dont expect that is baileyana due to the leaf width vs length being off quite a bit.  The distance in a direction along petiole from the end of petiole to leaf tip vs width leaf tip to leaf tip across in a normal direction is a ratio Charlie measured.  Charley had a yard that must have been full of baileys and fallaensis and he recorded the ratios for fallaensis and bailey.   Your leaf looks too wide vs its length to be either. Here is the Palmtalk link:

 

Ok I'm convinced it's not baileyana.  Any ideas what it might be?  Looked thru the pictures of all from Palmpedia and just going by pictures of the fronds and most don't really have good frond pictures and I can't find a match.  I'd think the straight line across the bottom might be a give-a-way.

[ZPalms]

wow the causiarums are so tall now

[sonoranfans]

18 hours ago, WaianaeCrider said:

Ok I'm convinced it's not baileyana.  Any ideas what it might be?  Looked thru the pictures of all from Palmpedia and just going by pictures of the fronds and most don't really have good frond pictures and I can't find a match.  I'd think the straight line across the bottom might be a give-a-way.

Im not sure what your palm could be, and it could be a hybrid as cuban copernicias readily hybridize.  Hybrids are beautiful palms too!

[sonoranfans]

If I have one regret about planting C baileyana its that I did not get 3-4 more of them back in 2011.  As a 5 gallon palm it wasnt a particularly attractive palm but it is one of the few palms I have that grows more attractive as it gets older.  I recently planted some small blue C. hospitas, wish I had done that 10 years ago too.

[Bkue]

Bet. I want one, can’t find or don’t want to spend on a big, and don’t think I will be here long enough to see it in full glory. Wish I did it 4-5yrs ago with the rest. 

[FlaPalmLover]

Have you posted any pics of the fallaensis in the back? I am a bigger fan of those personally but both look great.

[sonoranfans]

On 9/10/2023 at 5:23 PM, FlaPalmLover said:

Have you posted any pics of the fallaensis in the back? I am a bigger fan of those personally but both look great.

I hav enot posted the fallaensis recently as it lost almost half the crown, the half to the windward side in IAN.  It is my most wind exposed palm, not near the house or any other tree.  I will post its progression just as I did for the bailey once the crown grows back.  RIght now it has a shaved one one side look to it.